What are cave dwelling Troglodytes? Is it a coincidence that places of cultural significance often seem to be in resource rich areas, for example the planned Yeelirrie Uranium mine? Why should your Financial Adviser be aware of these issues? Join us for this special Ethical Investment Week 2022 interview with Kado Muir.
It’s a year since my last podcast discussion with Kado, and a lot has happened in that time. In response to the Juukan Gorge incident, the First Nations Heritage Protection Alliance was formed. In late 2021, Kado helped produce a Toolkit for Investors, designed to contribute to the protection of First Nations cultural heritage which is unique to this country and part of the common legacy of all Australians. Also, since Juukan Gorge, progress has been made in other areas – such as the Taskforce on Nature Based Financial Disclosure. In short, there’s a lot happening which will assist both cultural heritage and biodiversity. Kado and I discuss this progress, along with exploring what companies can do to effectively engage with Aboriginal culture.
I hope you enjoy this discussion with Kado Muir.
We wish to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land we recorded on, the Wardandi Noongar people. We pay our respects to them and their culture; and to elders past, present and future.
Links:
Its-not-worth-wiping-out-a-species-for-the-yeelirrie-uranium-mine
Traditional-owners-lose-their-fight-stop-uranium-mine-wa
What-are-the-seven-sisters-songlines
Transcript – Beyond Juukan Gorge – Uranium, Troglodyte Extinction & Cultural Cringe, with Kado Muir
October 02, 2022 James Baird
James (00:45):
Kado, welcome to The Green Dream again, and thanks for your time today.
Kado (02:07):
No worries, James. Thanks
James (02:08):
You. I’m on Wardandi Noongar country down here in Dunsborough. Where are you recording from today?
Kado (02:15):
Yeah, so I’m over in the Esperance Noongar country. Yeah, so just enjoying some time in Esperance.
James (02:23):
I wanted to ask firstly about the toolkit that you’ve put together with the Responsible Investment Association in response to the Jukkan Gorge incident, the First Nations Heritage Protection Alliance was formed. Can you tell us a bit about how the toolkit came about?
Kado (02:37):
Yeah, well, it, it’s a collaboration between, you know, the people within the Responsible Investment Association and some of the, so I, I didn’t actually have personal authorship of it, but you know, having a level of oversight and input from my role as chair of the National Native Title Council, and also in the First Nations Heritage Protection Alliance. So there were a working group made up of some of the people in, in our alignment. And yeah, so just basically drilling down on the basic principles around what to watch out for and look for in how you go about a responsible investment into projects that may have an impact on First Nations communities environment and culture.
James (03:28):
And the toolkit isn’t just about the mining sector in Australia, and not just about Jukkan Gorge, of course, it’s about a range of different sectors, a range of different industries that that can affect indigenous communities, welfare and, and their communities and culture. Can you give us some examples of where some case studies where it’s worked and, and hasn’t worked in the past?
Kado (03:51):
I’m not sure the application you know, as it’s quite new, and I think there are people who are still engaging with it. And I do know that there are people who are actually using the toolkit, but I, I think the general principles are quite common. It’s common sense in, in a way. One of the other references I should at this point alert you and your listeners to is there’s a guide that we produced nearly 25, 30 years ago now through the Australian Heritage Commission known as Ask First. And this, you can still download a copy of that through the Environment Australia website or, but the Ask First model is about, you know, asking first before you take any action. And there, there are models that the Dar Niland, I think, which goes into informing the, the toolkit also.
Kado (04:45):
And then, I think it’s the intent and the philosophy behind it, which is where the Responsible Investors Association of Australasia are coming from, is that you’ve got to be responsible in the nature of your investment. So looking at the impact an investment might have on the local communities, the environment et cetera. And one of the framing, I suppose, the reference points I’m deploying or using in my engagements with government and industry from a traditional owner perspective and also for traditional owners, is having our own sustainability framework and identifying what our priorities are, but doing that in such a way that it links in with the SDGs, the United Nations Sustainable Development Goals. And here in Australia, of course, we have Closing the Gap priority which at the moment just seems to be a litany of tears of constantly and the state of environment reports where you’re basically showing how there’s a gradual decline.
Kado (05:57):
So it’s like watching a train wreck you know, the train coming towards you crashing. And in this way with the toolkit with it’s basically mobilized people as participants, active participants in these activity to then self define and start to take the action necessary as opposed to waiting for the miraculous hand of government to solve everything. So <laugh>. And that’s the way we do it. So in, in our respect now as a traditional owner group, you know, coming up with a sustainability framework saying, these are our priorities when we’re engaging with a mining company, how does it’s project positively contribute to our priority generate a, you know, a benefit sharing arrangement, and then our thoughts or communications go back to the investor as well as the end consumer. So in each one of these sort of points of interaction, government then sort of fades the background as a party that sets up infrastructure around which the actors go about their engagement.
James (07:07):
Have a lot of the problem cases in the past been caused by communication breakdowns? And is that improving?
Kado (07:13):
Yeah, yeah. Jukkan in itself is just a a classic example of hubris, which then breaks down the checks and balances internally. So in that, I think a, an investor just as much as a traditional owner, just as much as a bureaucrat each have a responsibility to play in upholding, you know, values upholding ethics and all those sort of things, so that an activity should generate a net positive return as opposed to a negative return on other metrics, that are beyond the actual financial indicators and that that’s essentially – you know, how much water goes into generating a pound of nickel? Is that water renewable? But those are not inputs that are measured or counted at this point in time. But as water becomes more and more of a scarce resource you know, there are, people will be looking to have that analysis.
James (08:19):
So it’s the case of let’s measure the real impact, including not just the financial positives for the corporation, but everything else. And if that impact statement stacks up, then potentially there is no opposition to the project going ahead?
Kado (08:35):
Yeah. I mean, go ahead with that particular business model that you have at play, but you know, it’s not saying stop doing it, but it’s saying your model might not be correct. And this is the problem with you know, it’s why ESG is so important is it comes back to that governance side. So if you have a board made up of 10 people all named John educated out of a private school in somewhere in Sydney, you’re going to get the answer that John wants. So that that’s the, you know, that the business model might require level of reflection and including, you know, the inclusivity, other perspectives and value that then build in the impact. You might get a better return. Oh, you definitely get a better return, as opposed to a extractive model that is built around a mono cultured view of the world.
James (09:33):
And I think that overall impact is really important because we’ve got, okay, fossil fuels are, are on the way out, everyone knows that, but really replacing some of those high profile companies will be the next breed, which will be the lithium miners and all the other materials that we need as we transition to net zero and renewables. So they could take that as a positive – get that scorecard right, get that impact right. And there shouldn’t be any opposition to, to what they’re doing?
Kado (10:03):
Yeah. No, totally. And it’s all about innovation. So, you know, some people get locked into a particular way of doing things, whether it’s you know, your sausage machine on the way that you make money or whether it’s, you know, the way, way you develop a mine or whatever. And so just give you an example in my traditional community name, that’s fairly well documented. But we’re currently negotiating with two mining companies around them developing, you know, a substantial project within highly sensitive cultural area. The difference here is that we’re sitting at the table together, we’re doing the analysis, the auditing, the we’re planning at the outset, so at the very beginning, and being part of the decision making from the very beginning so that the impacts then become manageable and possibly, you know, you can offset it in, in some way within your local region. And in that way, being engaging traditional owners at the very beginning, doing it in a sensitive manner that’s not imposing the Western way of doing things then leads to a better relationship. So it’s building those relationships. And then my point about all the Johns in the boardroom comes back to some of those Johns maybe either stepping back or changing their view of the world and engaging Jeans or someone who then give them a better, better insight or perspective on how to go about doing their business.
James (11:36):
What are some of the misunderstandings that can arise when we’re talking about those places of cultural significance?
Kado (11:44):
Well, there’s obviously the, the basic ones are, for want of a better word cultural misogyny where you, you’re basically locked into a mindset that devalues the alternative view and therefore it becomes a case of might is, right. And I think the, the example there, not wanting to pick on particular people, but there are people who are trained to think and operate in and, and, you know, part of their character as well where they’re trained to think, not picking on engineers, but let’s say an engineer looks at a project plan and outcome and the steps necessary to go there. And if that engineer has all the resources at their disposal, that’s what they will do. And they will not stop to consider the impact on environmental questions or cultural questions or social question. And so this is where it’s important for investors. When you are putting your money or your capital into a company, you’ve got to then ask the questions, Okay, how do you include others? How do you manage alternative views? And how do you actually create value for my investment through stepping away from the old ways of doing business and going into the new ways of doing business?
James (13:11):
I wanted to ask about Yeelirrie, because at, at the moment, that’s a mine that’s not going ahead. But it just seems like such an important case study. It’s a very long term battle to mine, that area for uranium. And first of all, can you tell us what cave dwelling troglodytes are?
Kado (13:28):
<Laugh>? Yeah. So we’ve got troglodytes and stygofauna. So the nature of Yeelirrie is, it’s in calcrete and there’s a uranium deposit that’s partially dissolved, I think, in, in the water but it’s also in calcrete, which you’re in Wardandi country, you’ve quite familiar with all the big caves you’ve got down that way. That’s what we have out under the desert sands around Yeelirrie is a series of caves underground. And whereas where you are living with a lot of it’s been exposed, and so people can now go in as tourists and visit these places, in Yeelirrie they’re still deep underground, and some of these spaces range, possibly from the size of a living room. I don’t know if there’s anything the size of any of your big caves down in the southwest there. But these pockets of caves or caverns underground give rise to life forms that don’t, in some cases don’t exist outside of that particular cave. So stygofauna are the small creatures that live in the water, and they’re basically everything from creatures that look like prawns through to spiders or, you know whatever, whatever form that they take. And often quite small, but these creatures actually only exist in that particular cavern and nowhere else in the world.
James (15:02):
So the EPA was opposed to mining because they could just be wiped out?
Kado (15:06):
Yeah, yeah. I mean, you, you basically destroy, So just think about talking about a, a space, maybe the size of a bedroom filled with water. And then there’s a species of animal that lives in there. So that’s the stygofauna. The troglodytes are in caves that are dry, so they’re not water dwelling, but there things like millipedes, scorpions, all these different creatures that only live in those caverns. And so a project that is designed to dig up that earth remove that water and destroy those habitats, basically leads to the extinction of those species. And there’s no, you know, there’s no two bones about it. The companies might go in, ‘Oh yes, well, we’ll relocate them’, but where do you relocate them to what, how, what do you understand about these species? And so that’s where the EPA were opposed. The environmental groups, as well as traditional owners were also opposed to it.
Kado (16:11):
But the company and the government were on the one hand offering I think the company, you know, a management the management plans, I don’t know how a management plan operates if you’re going to destroy a cavern that has a species in it that doesn’t exist anywhere else in the world. So that was a classic case, I suppose, or an example of where we’re emerging today in, you know, what’s going on with the task force for nature based financial disclosure. The SEC in the US for instance, is starting to put up guidelines around companies that are listed on the stock markets in the US need to report on impacts on nature. I think that’ll probably happen here in Australia very soon as well. And there’s an alignment going on building on the, the carbon credit movement that’s now looking at biodiversity credits and stuff like that.
Kado (17:09):
And so an end consumer so let’s look at uranium for instance. The whole idea of the uranium mines, there’s only two end well, possibly three end uses you have, but one’s quite small with uranium for medical practice. But the other two end users are either in arms or power. If it’s in arms, then there’s discussion, you’re all dead anyway, But the if it’s in power, then the person flicking on the switch is the end consumer, and that person may go: Well, I (and you know, with technologies like Power Ledger are deploying and stuff like that, you can now make a choice as to where you purchase your power from). And so a person flicking on switch might say, ‘I don’t want my power being coming out of a mine that’s destroyed a entire species of animal’. And so in that supply chain, there will come a time and, you know, it’s actually people are working on it at the moment where the biodiversity credits will apply to demonstrate the impact of a project on, on nature. And so investors, when they’re looking at their return on investment that your return on investment is based on the consumer at the other end paying for that resource that is sold by the company that you’ve invested in. And so, you know, it becomes a self-fulfilling closed loop. And these are, you know, how you deal with it, et cetera is still up for development. But that’s essentially where we’re going.
James (18:45):
It does feel like there’s some, some small positive steps being taken, but, but it also feels like there’s a long way to go.
Kado (18:51):
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, you look at the, the carbon, you know, the federal governments just introduced the 40% target I think it was. And how long did that take? That took about 25 years to get there.
James (19:05):
And it had a few minor setbacks along way. Can you tell us about, about Yeelirrie? Is it a coincidence that it’s a place holds a lot of cultural significance, and it’s also a resource rich area?
Kado (19:19):
Oh no, no coincidence at all. It goes with the the nature of the environment. So aboriginal people knew about these sort of locations of these resources. There’s some really interesting exchanges that I witnessed many years ago as a young fellow where I think geological survey wa were talking about mapping some of the desert land to identify where the minerals were. And the elders were sitting there going, Well, we know where the minerals are. And this is something that’s not widely known, but it’s littered in every history book you ever read is all the early explorers, whether it’s John Forrest, David Carnegie, whoever – all had Aboriginal guides, people who negotiated safe passage for them as well as guided them to where the resources were. The nickel boom in the 1970s, a lot of Aboriginal people were employed as pegging leases for some of the miners, but they also took the original geologists, the prospectors, and the geologists, and said, Oh, look, if you’re looking for that particular rock we’ve got it over here.
Kado (20:40):
All of this doesn’t get built into the popular narratives and stories about the heroic geologists who discovered such and such a deposit <laugh> that they were basically taken by the hand and led to where these deposits were by Aboriginal people. And that’s based on that local knowledge of, of country that’s built on, you know, thousands and thousands of years of interaction with that environment. And so it’s no secret that where the resources are is often where the values are, whether they’re spiritual values, environmental values, cultural values, life history connect. So at Yeelirrie the old people knew that it was a, you know, potentially dangerous substance under the ground there, that’s then reflected in the narratives or the stories for that country, which relate to death, mourning, those sort of practices that when you map out where these dreaming stories go, they often correlate with both biologically rich areas, but also mineral rich.
James (21:49):
So the Seven Sisters Songline particularly relates to that area.
Kado (21:55):
It, it goes by it, but there’s another big dreaming story there that’s linked in with a termite story and the death of a lot of these termites through their own misadventure. And so Yeelirrie itself the word is Youlourie, which is the name of one of the rock waterholes there, and you is say, youlung is the wailing – or the crying, is a and when you’re mourning a death, and so that’s where the word Ry means death. Now there’s multiple sort of songlines that crisscross each other. So that was one associated with the men’s business. And then there’s the pathways of the Seven Sisters as they traveled across, linked into part of the ground. So the understanding that the Yeelirrie mine itself, the proposed pit is about 50 kilometers long <laugh>. And so it goes through a lot of country [tjiwarl country]
James (22:54):
I feel like as a society, we’re, we’re learning more and more about, sorry, business and for example, the tradition of, of not naming a dead person. We’ve had some examples. We’ve got Junior Rioli at the West Coast Eagles at the moment, he’ll be known by that name for 12 months. And we’ve got Archie Roach which the family said ‘Happy for you for his name to be used in the context of the funeral and mourning’. Is this an area where for so long we just haven’t understood what the cultural protocols are, and it’s like we’re almost starting from scratch? And so there’s been a lot of cultural misunderstandings in that particular area?
Kado (23:34):
Yeah, I mean, I think white Australia, for want of a better word, just have no idea of the Aboriginal cultural and spiritual value. This comes back to the entire power dynamics and the, and as, as well as the cultural cringe. So white Australia is built on a guilt complex, and this guilt complex goes in two directions. One around the cultural cringe of being a colony of Great Britain on the other side of the world. And, you know, that that’s something that I think what Australia went through the reconciling of that cultural cringe through the 1960s and 1970s. And then, of course, the other side is the bloody minded process of taking the lands of traditional owners through this concept of ‘terra nullius’ of the lie, basically the lie of Australia which is that it was an empty land, and therefore the normal laws and rules of a foreign power coming into a new territory did not apply to Australia.
Kado (24:46):
And in the normal course of events where a sovereign enters new territory, if it’s through conquest as a result of a declared war, all the laws of that land remain intact. And the sovereign basically replaces the existing sovereign. Now that didn’t occur in Australia, and that’s where in Victoria and the Northern Territory and elsewhere today, you hear of the treaty movement which is essentially reconciling – let’s use that word, reconciling from the accounting view of it – It’s reconciling that relationship the sovereign to sovereign status. So that’s as a result of a declared war. The other way is through treaty, where I think that’s the relationship in New Zealand and other parts of the world, Hong Kong’s treaty between the Chinese government of the day and the British now again, that recognized that there were laws, customs in place at the settling or the invading or the foreign entity that comes in then develops a relationship where you map out and work out how you live together.
Kado (25:59):
Again, the treaty movement is part of that and where we’re going through the process. Now, the third way, and this is the lie that Australia was settled on, is it’s an empty land. And on the basis of it being an empty land – no one there – the colonial government brought the domestic laws of England and spread it out like a picnic blanket over Australia. And on that basis Australia was settled and colonized, deploying the domestic laws of England in an illegal manner. And so it’s only since the 1990s with the Mabo decision, so 30 years since Mabo this year, that that falsehood or that lie has been overturned. And we’re now going through this process where you know, the reconciliation action plans, the native title claims, the acknowledgements to country, all of that is emerging or becoming more common in Australia as a result of you know, Mabo decision is a major significant decision.
Kado (27:13):
Because when you take away all the window dressing of it, basically it recognizes that aboriginal people are human. Before that, there was a complete denial. And so when 30 years, you know, that’s a generation, we now an emergence, I suppose, of people starting to acknowledge, recognize and start to understand the positioning of the settler state in relation to the traditional owners in the First Nation. So that’s the broader context. And then you bring that down onto the ground, There’s basically, you know, not wanting to hide it too much, but what Australia has a lot to learn a lot to learn, a lot to catch up on – peeling away, you know, these layers of ignorance from the hearts and the minds and the eyes. And so that’s a reflection of this, you know, that where do they actually interact with First Nations and Aboriginals peoples? You interact with me in the courtroom in native title proceedings, or you interact with viewing First Nations people’s performing in sporting events and stuff like that.
Kado (28:28):
And that’s probably more of a friendlier version than interacting with <laugh>, the federal court or the high court. So that’s how that exposure to aboriginal culture starts to emerge which is unfortunate. And I think this may be something that you could build into funding formulas if you’re deploying capital into projects, is saying, Well, do you have a reconciliation action plan? Do you have effective engagement and inclusion programs around aboriginal culture? And what is your impact on aboriginal culture? So Jukkan is an extreme version of the impact on aboriginal culture. So, yeah, I don’t know, <laugh>, it’s a roundabout way of sort of answering your question, but it’s basically an emerging space. There’s great opportunity to actually learn and gain a…well, essentially the understanding of land, environment and culture that aboriginal people hold and continue to hold in this country.
James (29:32):
Okay. I really appreciate your time today. I feel like we can take some positives out of it. We, we’ve certainly got a long way to go, but much like our group putting together a reconciliation action plan, we’re just at the, at the first step and the toolkit and like all nature based disclosure, like really considering overall impact for investments, it’s early days.
Kado (29:55):
I take the view it’s actually an exciting time
James (29:58):
Exactly
Kado (29:59):
At this point where our, our eyes, you know, my eyes, your eyes, everyone’s eyes are starting to open to a new world of possibility. And it’s just a, I think engendering that spirit of learning and engaging and not getting caught in those negative sort of attitudes that suppress us and hold us back. So, you know, the guilt or anger or all those sort of things, but just engaging to go out there and learn. And I think, you know, if there’s anything that I’d like to share with your listeners is engage on that sort of footing, just go out and learn you, you’re gonna make mistakes. We, we all do that, but participate in this exciting new sort of frontier that we’re standing on the edge of.
James (30:48):
Certainly when we, when we talk about ethical investment with our clients, we might be reviewing investments. We’ll always walk away with taking out some positives to taking out some positive impact from the conversation and, and leave feeling good about the investment, rather than if we’d done nothing and just push it all under the carpet. So yes, we’ll stay positive.
Kado (31:07):
Yeah, and that’s actually one of the most exciting things you and others in your industry that are doing this. This really is a brave new frontier in the investment industry. And then just for one, because we’re in that world now where communication is more effective, so we’re able to share ideas, whereas in the past, you’ll only ever find information in a zero or a one on a balance sheet. Now you’re able to make enquiries more directly and on the ground and then be able to map that against your metrics. So it’s an, it’s an exciting time.
James (31:49):
Exactly. And we look forward to the journey and keeping in touch along the way. So thanks very much for your time.
Kado (31:56):
No worries. Thank you.
James (32:03):
Thanks for listening to the Green Dream Podcast. For information on the ways that we can help you on your ethical investment journey, visit www.justinvest.net.au. Please keep in mind that the information contained in this podcast is of a general nature and does not take into account your personal circumstances. Past performance is not a reliable indicator of future results. You should consider obtaining personalized professional advice from a licensed financial planner before implementing any significant financial decisions. In the spirit of reconciliation, the grandam acknowledges the traditional custodians of country throughout Australia and their connections to land, sea, and community. We pay our respects to their elders past, present, and emerging, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people.
